Spurs Banter Archive May 17 2013

 

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17 May 2013 17:37:17
What's every one thinking on Jackson Martinez and David villa is this true we are interested in them and if it is do you think they are right for spurs?

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17 May 2013 16:46:04
Wulf

I don't think I am just knocking down straw men. A lot of people on this site are happy to quote all the top quality players they happen to fancy, without regard to whether we could possibly attract them or afford them if we did. I have said more about this in my response to Davo.

I think you are being unjust in saying I am biased in my selection of data.

When we talk about the financial health of the club, surely the relevant factors are the ones I quoted: revenue trends, debt, cash reserves and wage bill. In our case, these all suggest a club that is in decent shape but is not awash with money.

Similarly, I am aware of Tottenham's position in the Forbes list; that is where some of my data came from. In most leagues we would be a massive club, but in the Premiership we are only 6th biggest. We have performed better than that in recent years and should give credit where credit is due. By the way, I might also ask how this has been achieved, if some of our players are as below par as you suggest.

I agree that the 12th biggest club in the world should be able to sign a striker that could score 15 goals in most leagues, but not necessarily in the Premiership. In fact, the only strikers that managed it this season were Van Persie, Suarez, Benteke, Michu and Ba.

The strikers that failed this test include Aguero, Tevez, Dzeko, Rooney, Hernadez and Torres (players out of our financial league) as well as Giroud, Podolsky, Walcott, Berbatov, Cisse, Abonglehore, Kone and our own Defoe and Adebayor.

Defoe doesn't seem to have recovered fitness or form after his injury. Adebayor was signed to hold the fort while we looked for a long term solution to our striking problem. His form and his 17 goals last year suggested he was worth his modest fee. The complete collapse of his form this season is both a disappointment and a puzzle.

I also think it is misleading to talk about the 12th biggest club having to choose between Huddlestone and Livermore in midfield. At the start of the season, our central midfield options also included Sandro, Parker (when fit), Dembele, Bale, Dempsey, Siggurdson, Carroll and Jenas. In fact, Huddlestone has only appeared 14 times and Livermore 11. Most of these have been cameos at the end of games.

I know it is tempting to cite the points we shouldn't have dropped and ask 'what if'. But so could Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City. The bottom line is that we are probably going to register a record number of points this year.

If we could have found the right striker in January it might have made the difference, but a few extra goals from Defoe or Adebayor might have done the trick just as well. By the same token, Liverpool added Sturridge in January and he has performed well for them, but they still didn't make up any ground on us or Arsenal as a result.

In any case, I think it was goals we have conceded that have been our Achilles heel.

I still think my post was more right than wrong.
KM

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KM - you have some very good arguments, and I agree with a whole lot of what you have said. The reason I said I felt there was some selection bias in your evidence is that there are very few clubs awash with cash. You are right that information just as revenue are the right things to be looking at, but if our revenue is not enough to be able to afford that much for a striker then how do you explain how some other clubs are able to do it when they are not in the top 20? (I'm not thinking of the ones that are funded by m/billionaires).

A similar thing is in your statement now about how a lot of people here do just pick anyone they fancy. But those are not the serious conversations, because there are a lot of other people that are talking realistic figures about realistic prospects. I myself gave an example of Negredo who would very likely be good enough, the right type of player, affordable both in fee and wages, and also at a club that is having financial problems and could be enticed to sell.

Your main point, if I read it correctly, is that we don't have the money available to buy players like that. I think that we do.


I agree with you about Ade being worth the fee (well not in hindsight, but at the time it was). But come mid January with Ade out of form coming back from injury and being lured by the African Cup, and with Defoe having scored once in a month and our only senior striker then it would have made a lot of sense to reinforce that area. My point about just needing one goal was not a woulda-shoulda-coulda around dropped points (I agree all teams could claim that), but more of an example about how fine the margins are between CL and non-CL qualification.

I think the Hudd/Livermore point (although somewhat tongue in cheek) is still quite valid - Spurs have a good first 11 (reinforce LB, ST, and get a creative passing midfielder and it will be an excellent first 11), but we don't have strength in depth. If Sandro and Dembele get injured like they are right now then those two pretty much are the choice. When Lennon got injured we had no backup. With BAE injured or out of form we had to play people out of position. None of that makes any sense.

So as the 6th richest football club in the Premier League we only need to do better than one other team to be in our rightful place on a financial perspective, and fortunately Liverpool's implosion / rebuild is that one team. Last year Chelsea had a similar implosion and over the summer bought a ton of good players and jumped ahead of us. These are all missed opportunities, but I don't think that they are being missed because the bank account is empty.

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Wulf

As I said in my original post, I think we are still close enough to Champions League football for the right purchase to keep us competitive. However, you have just put your finger on the real difference between us and the Big Four. Compared with them, there is too big a gap in quality between our best eleven players and their cover. This leaves us vulnerable to injuries or loss of form.

Unfortunately, that is a measure of the difference in resources between us. We are talking about 80m or more a year. We cannot afford to have top class players sitting on the bench and we cannot afford enough of them to allow for genuine rotation in the squad. This season we didn’t do ourselves any favours by loaning out Rose (cover for BAE) or Townsend (cover on both wings), but that just illustrates our dilemma: both players were getting very frustrated at not having more game time.

What can we do about this? I don’t think we can afford to build up the depth of quality in the squad that we need, but I am sure that money can be found for at least one top class player, if the price is right.

I understand your frustration, because a bit of positive investment seems long overdue. In the 4 seasons since we were digging ourselves out of the Ramos hole, our net spend on players has been negative by about 12m. However, it worries me that this frugality doesn’t seem to show up in our accounts.

My hope is that the completion of the first phase of the Northumberland Park Development will soon start to generate income and eat into our debts.
KM

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Yeah I agree we don't have the resources to have the strength in depth of the big four, but I think that our problem is not that our backup players are not good enough (they aren't good enough, but quality is not the problem) it is that we have no plan B.

Our return against the top teams is good considering how strong they are. In 8 games against the current top 4 clubs we scored 11 pts, so 1. 375 per game. To put that in context Arsenal's only win against the top 4 teams they played (so including us) was the home win against us. The only other points they picked up were 2 draws against the two Manchester clubs. That's 5 points for an average of 0. 625 per game.


Similarly our results against the other higher performing clubs is also good. Taking the games against the teams 6-10 we scored 20 points in 10 games, with the late loss against Everton and the suicide against Liverpool our only games we took nothing from. That shows that we have a good team (in case anyone was in doubt!).


The problem has been against the lower teams. In teams 11-20 we have played 17 games for 31 points, at an average of 1. 82 per game. Even with a win tomorrow that only goes to 1. 9, and that's not a bad return but it is not a good one either.

It's even worse against the three relegated teams at only 1. 5 points per game played. Two wins, three draws and a loss gives us 9 points. Compared to Arsenal who got all 18 points available. If tomorrow goes as expected and we finish 5th I think this is the area that you can say we lost CL qualification.


So how can we be doing well against the top teams and not against the bottom ones? If it were quality you'd expect it the be the other way around. I think it is style. The bigger teams try to beat us and that's a style that we play well against. The bottom teams pack up tight and go for draws and we suffer. Now we were expecting Ade to be able to rip these teams up, but when it was obvious he was having a shocker we didn't react with a January purchase.


So I think we have the players to compete with the big 4 when we play against them, what we need is some extra players to give us a plan B. But these players do not need to be big expensive ones on massive wages, so I think we can afford them.


Want to thank you for the good conversation (not to say it has to end here of course!), but it's great to chat about the club we're clearly both so passionate about with other intelligent commentators! :) {Ed008's Note - Your guys debate has been certainly interesting to read great posts you guys!

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17 May 2013 16:15:21
Google a player, it quotes their wages, clubs etc. interesting stuff, although it can't all be real. Apparently holtby is on 67k, that's a lot of money to warm the bench!

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17 May 2013 15:00:54
Dear ED

For those who appreciate my posts I would like to thank you all, even ED 008 mentioned the value he thought I brought below.

I am a loyal Spurs fan, but there are clearly a few who seek to disagree with everything I write.
{Ed008's Note - Deleted the rest it's stupid that you will be forced off a page that's welcome to everyone!

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In fairness oracle that is because very little of what you prophasize becomes fact, so you surely can see peoples reasons. I would say stay because I come on here for entertainment and you certainly provide that

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With respect oracle, you bring most of the bad comments you receive all on yourself.
Your writing style is very patronising to some and you claim to be the all seeing all knowing 'oracle', when none of your 'facts' are actually proved to be true.
Your posts go up a notch when approaching and during a transfer window and you seem to trawl every Internet site gathering as much info as you can about every player ever to wear white. When someone does call you out, you hide and ignore the post.
Now, can't you see why some might just get the hump when you go quiet all season and then flood our site with garbage around transfer time. I personally don't mind reading your drivel and I think you just love the attention you bring yourself but, if you are an avid reader if this site, them you will know it is full of spats and disagreements because different people have different opinions. So, with you being one of the most self riotous posters on here, are you surprised people object to some if your drivel.

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Anyone who rights such self rightous ballorks and is never proven right is undoubtedly going to be ridiculed. I cannot believe the eds stand by you, I for one am getting severly bored of reading your crap, and the endless list of comments that go with it. This board would be better without you.
Devonspur

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17 May 2013 16:34:17
Oracle

You do make good points about football tactics and our current players. However you have no knowledge about transfers and then post utter s***. If you just kept to the tactics and match talk then people would respect and praise you. But for every good post you have a poor prediction to.

Jay-B-13

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See, he has done it again.
We are talking about him. I'm sure that is what he needs and craves.

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Oracle, listen to jay-b.


-name & its reputation
-your sensitivity
-Writing style/content

All things that can be changed. but good bye if you just want to leave instead of trying to stay in this community. You blame everyone else, maybe you should look in a mirror. your prior posts. to see why we react the way we do. Hate to say it, although this page will be less interesting, it will also be much more civil with your absence.

The fact is if you cannot conduct yourself in such a way that receives positive responses, learn not to care, or don't go to a place where you don't fit in or learn to fit in. There is no other way about this.

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I second that j-b-13. Oracle you write in a way that comes across as patronising and then give us your transfer predictions as if you are a mole on the spurs board and it is all dead cert. If you believe these things or have inside information or whatever, why not post on here in a way that better reflects the fact that none of us really ever know who we will sign. You could probably count on two hands the amount of people at our mighty club who know the inside and out of transfer targets. You set yourself up mate. Change that and I'm sure you will be more appreciated.

Hayes Lillywhite

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Also maybe a little less belittling people would achieve a bit of respect.

It's obvious that some football fans are a little less intelligent than a sausage but doesn't mean they don't have intellect in other ways. Making these people feel small because they disagree with you doesn't make them wrong. You don't appreciate it either oracle so show a bit more class and don't fall to that level.

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It's not even that you come up with rumours that prove to not be true, because after all this is a rumour site and most of what is said on here is not true.

It is that you come on here and try to tell people of your facts. Like how in January you told everyone that Damaio was a done deal, that the contract had been signed, and that it was just Levy waiting until the end of the window to reveal him.

How do you expect people to believe what you have to say when window after window so many of your facts prove to be wrong?

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17 May 2013 12:46:47
Davo

I don't think there is as much difference between us as you think. However, I still stick to my basic argument (you wouldn't expect anything else) but you made a couple of points I would like to comment on.

First, there is the issue of whether Levy gets bonuses for saving money. I doubt if you are right about this. Neither of us actually knows the basis on which Levy is paid (only the Oracle has inside information like that) but it is not normal to pay bonuses just for balancing the books - which is all Tottenham has done over the past 10 years.

I also think you are wrong in saying that most people don't want us to spend and spend and spend. Many do, which is why I made the original post. People make their own calculations of the profits they think we have made on transfers and then propose spending it. Rather than challenge their calculations I was simply inviting them to look at our published accounts. Why guess when you can know?

We all know that we need a top class striker. It has been a weakness in the squad for years. But who have we missed out on because of Levy's reluctance to spend? Most of the names I hear on this site are either pipe dreams, over-priced short term stop-gaps, or are just 'flavour of the month'. I will give a couple of examples of the latter.

Newcastle took a chance on the injury-prone Demba Ba and it paid off. But would you have approved the signing of a man with his record and his dodgy knees? I don't think I would. He is now at Chelsea, where 6 goals in 21 game is probably not what they hoped for.

It is the same with Papiss Cisse. With 13 goals 14 appearances last year he looked an inspired signing, but 13 goals in 46 games this season suggests otherwise.

Then there is Jelavic at Everton: 11 goals in 16 appearances last year and 8 goals in 42 games this year.

I am glad we didn't take a punt on any of these players.

Now it is Michu and Benteke that are 'the ones that got away'.

Last summer, Michu was a 26 year-old striker that had spent 9 mediocre seasons in the lower divisions in Spain (40 goals in 201 games) and one good season in La Liga (17 in 39). Of course he wasn't on our radar. He is exactly the sort of signing we would have criticised Levy for making.

Benteke is a slightly different case, because he is still young, but his 48 goals in 159 games in Belgium didn't exactly make him one of the hottest properties in Europe.

We will see what happens to Michu and Benteke next season.

Of course, the player we really regret is Suarez. With 111 goals in 159 games for Ajax he was unquestionably a top prospect. But he had a notoriously flaky temperament and wasn't cheap. 24m was a lot more than we had ever paid for a player and we didn't have the 50m Torres deal lined up. We had to be sure.

But if we had been sure, would he have come to us, especially when Liverpool got involved. From his perspective, which was the better bet: a club which hadn't won a major prize in his lifetime, or the 5 times winners of Europe's top prize.

I don't want to sound like Levy's PR man. I think he has made plenty of mistakes, sometimes by trying to be too clever. However, he was talked into spending significant sums on strikers like Rebrov, Bent and Pavlyuchenko and got his fingers burned, so I can understand his caution now.

I would just repeat one statement from my previous post:

For a club like Spurs, it is not enough for a player to be good: he also has to be good value.

With that in mind I would agree with THFC4EVER:

Damiao at the right price might be a good signing, but Damiao at any price isn't.
KM

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KM
My comment on Levy's bonuses was a joke, sorry! I don't believe he gets a bonus on money saved but face it, He goes out of his way to completely ***k up any deal or transfer. Everybody knows what positions we need changed, including the club! I don't want my team to go the way of s***ty and the Chavs, but to progress we need to buy as our current forwards are absolute s****. As for names, what about Lukaka, Sturridge, to name just two?

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Sorry Davo, I had a sense of humour malfunction. It has been fixed

KM

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17 May 2013 21:54:15
Joe Lewis is a very greedy businessman, he really couldn't care about Tottenham as a fan but as a businessman he saw massive profits and that's exactly what will happen when the new stadium is built. The club will be sold (wouldnt be surprised if AEG buy us) and Levy will get a huge payoff.

Levy is a very astute economist. It's Joe Lewis that is tight, our last spending spree, when we brought Defoe back, was funded by a share issue and not by Lewis. Levy has to be very clever, which he is, to run Tottenham as he does punching above our weight. When we get our new stadium then we will be top 6 in financial terms in the world due to the increase in revenue.

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This is a very interesting post. I read a blog some time ago that examined Tottenham's books in detail and concluded that it looked like club being readied for sale. Nothing happened then, but that doesn't mean it won't in the future. Whether that would be a good thing only time will tell

KM

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17 May 2013 11:34:20
Guys I know I'm going to get a lot of stick for this and I myself have agreed with a lot of you and still do that Levy is a complete tight arse. However I think its fair to say that he has done an absolutely fantastic job for our beloved club. Despite what we all think, if you look back over the years, enic along with DL's help have invested rather heavily in our club, we have just had a state of the art training center built. We have made numerous high transfer fee signings, Rebrov, Berbatov, Bent, Dembele, Modric, Van Der Vaart, Vertonghen, Lloris, Kaboul (Twice totaling over £12m), Defoe (Twice totaling Ove £15m), Pavulacenko, Bale I believe with add ons has now cost over £10m and there is others that aren't mentioned but the few players above have totaled in excess of £120m, it doesn't matter who you (unless its the Manchester clubs or Chavs) this is a lot of money. I know some will point to the sell on figures of these players, but once you balance the incoming and outgoing figures of these player, you have to take into account wages, image rights and bonus's of these players whislt at our club. Some will also point out that not all the players signed were successful and that is more to my point DL is in a no win situation, yes we all crave that big money super star striker, but if DL spent £10m, £15m or even £20m on a striker who ended up like Rebrov, Pav or Bent, no doubt some fans will lay into him for wasting money/time.

IMO, I don't think its a case of DL not wanting to pay the money, I think its more the case of him knowing he's getting value for that money. Who on here (Apart from Orcale) can say that £20m for an unproven South American striker is good value, the guy ain't even a regulaer international. Yeas I agree the DL is extremely frustating in his dealing quibbling over a few quid, but the guy is just trying to get the best deal for our club. I do agree he needs to find the balance between being unrealistically tight fisted and paying over the odds in his negoiating skills. But I do believe he has our beloved clubs best interests at heart and I would like to think he knows what is now needed to move us forward.

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Hi THFC

Completely agree with all the posts above.

And agree levy is shrewd and has the clubs best interests at heart.

My issue with levy is his penny pinching. Moutinho deal. waits till last minute of the transfer deadline day (gets rid of vdv and modric to finance a deal for moutinho) then quibbles over the price. We know moutinho is class and worth the investment, he would have been ideal for spurs. This is what annoys me about him. the way he runs the book and is cautious over money is good for our club. but the man always wants to go one better even when getting a reasonable deal

NorthernSpur

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17 May 2013 20:41:47
Blame Joe Lewis, Levy's margins are unbelievably precise.

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17 May 2013 09:33:25
Wulf and Davo

Thanks for responding to my post with reasoned and considered arguments - that doesn't always happen on this site.

I will consider what you have said and reply later.

KM

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